Transcript:

We talked with Amy Petersen about why collaboration tools rarely solve team dysfunction, and how to identify and address the deeper culture and process problems that technology only exposes.

All right, hello and welcome to our Impactful Projects and Planning series. I am Jami Yazdani, and today's session, I'm talking with Amy Peterson about why collaboration tools rarely solve team dysfunction. So Amy is the founder and director of impact projects consulting. She's a mission driven leader who leverages her global, multi sector experience to help nonprofit and social impact organizations seeking to make an impact with their community. So welcome, Amy. Thanks for being here.

Tell us a little bit about your work and your business. So what impact are you hoping to create for your clients?

It's great to be with you Jami today, thanks for the little mini intro there. Yeah. So I work as a consultant with primarily small nonprofit and social impact organizations to really help them remove barriers to reaching their their program goals. So often that is strategy, both at the organizational level, so organizational development, process and systems, and then also program design, ensuring

the the strategy is speaking from the organization, into the programs, into that mission, and making sure kind of all of those pieces are aligned. And like you mentioned, I've worked a fair bit internationally. I'm working in the nonprofit for profit and government spaces, so like to bring all of that diverse context and experience into working with clients to help them really understand the root of their challenges and build systems and processes to remove those so that they can really focus on delivering the mission for that community and people impact. Wonderful. Thanks. And you know this, the topic today really has come out of our conversations, because we're both folks who based on the work that we do, people ask us about the collaboration tools all the time. And so I know that what I often see is that leaders come to me and are really convinced that some new tool, a project management tool, a collaboration tool, is going to solve their problems, and their problem is often a much deeper issue in within their teams, and the way that their teams are working. And so what are you seeing when it comes to organizations deciding to adopt a new collaboration tool, 100%

the same? And I think this is something that has kind of since the beginning of tools has gone on, right? There's a tool that's going to solve all of my problems, and I'm not sure it's ever been True. I do think now with with AI, there's a and again, this kind of reinvigorated, like there is some large language model that's going to solve everything and make everything smooth and simple. And I think that there are certainly avenues where tools are going to help organizations. They're going to help people do their work, but it's rarely going to solve all of the challenges. If you don't know what all of the challenges is are that you're trying to solve. So there's what I always recommend, when in conversation with with teams and organizations that just want a tool to fix things is to really ask, what are you trying to fix? Do you know? Are you confident what you're trying to address is not just a symptom, but it is actually the route that's going to get you where you want to go. And I find often, when you start having those conversations, people kind of warm up to the idea that it's not just, you know, slap a band aid on it, put a new tool in there, and everybody's going to be happy, right? Yeah, I often tell people that you're just moving your poor communication to a different platform, because that really is kind of what it's like. Oh, well, our teams aren't working well. If we implement, you know, Asana or slack, suddenly it will fix it. And I do think sometimes that is what the folks selling you tools will say. It's sort of the one tool to rule them all. And I've never, I love tools, but I've never seen that actually happen. And I think especially in nonprofit environments where you're working with outside, you know, stakeholders a lot, even if a tool is going to solve a lot of your problems. It's not necessarily going to solve things for your external stakeholders or the folks that that you're working with. So you mentioned so much of just and there's so much around design that people forget. You know, people can sell you a tool, and this the what they're selling you is this end product that's been perfectly designed for you, right? But sometimes people go, Oh, well, I just, I want that. Well, that's not actually going to work for you, and you have to do some intentional design and architecting of any tool. And a lot of you know, I think it's, you know, obvious when you think about it, but it's also a step that's pretty easy to miss when you're.

Kind of in that salesy environment.

Well, I mean, I think that is so very, very true, because I see organizations not only think a tool is going to solve a problem, but that if we just give people access to the tool, they're suddenly going to magically use it, and it's going to be set up correctly for the way that that we're working. And even though there are some tools that have great teams that help you on board and can get something set up, but a lot of times, I think, particularly with nonprofits, that's not the version that they're paying for. You know, they might be getting a discounted version that doesn't have the same support, and often to being able to design templates and and get the design set up the way you want. It requires some understanding of the way that you work in your organization, and it may be more than

you know the sales person or the implement implementation team is really willing to do. And just because you give people, everybody an account in Asana or Trello or whatever, our Slack doesn't mean that they know how to use it and really know how to use it in the ways that are going to move the needle. And so I do think some hands on

thoughts, some intense, unintentional approach to adopting a tool is often what I think is really missing with many organizations. 100 100% Yeah, and and people. Just people are people. You know, we're changing how you do all of your work is hard, right? So making sure that people are involved like so you've got that buy in is so important. Whether it's perfectly architect you know, it's perfectly architected, it'll do all the things you want, but nobody likes it. We still have a problem what, I think, especially in the sectors that we work in, those folks already have a lot on their plate and and if you're introducing a tool that is going to change the way they're working. Often at a leadership level, people kind of dismiss that. They dismiss that impact. But if you have 10 things on your plate, and I've just made three of them take twice as long while you try to figure out a tool,

that's not great, you know? And so we do need to think about those change management pieces as well, and that it's going to take time. I think people often, also, I see clients who want to do it quick. Let's adopt this tool. We're going to have it up in a month. Maybe I can help you get it going and have templates and things. But if people aren't going to be using it for three months, or they're only going to be using parts of it. You know, at the beginning of the year, you really need a longer kind of change management approach to tool adoption, especially the kinds of tools that we're talking about that really are engaging with the way that people are working together. That is not a quick, quick fix.

So, you know, you said that often, you know, when a team sort of is is struggling, and you try to kind of ask some questions to get them, you know, to the root of the problem.

How do you see it beyond kind of asking those questions. Could you tell talk a little bit more about that? How do you kind of steer people toward really thinking about people and process rather than just tool use?

Yeah. So for me as generally an outside person, I can come in and kind of have a

I'm divorced from some of the internal politics, which is super helpful for some of those conversations. So I like to start with one on ones. In the discovery phase, you're kind of pulling apart some themes, gathering some information. And I tend to work across an organization. I don't want to talk with just one team or one leader. I want to hear everybody. And then from that, you can take all of that. You're kind of gathering into slightly larger groups, whether that's like a team conversation or a cross functional leader conversation, and you can kind of pressure test some of those themes you're hearing. And it doesn't have to it can be slightly anonymous. It doesn't have to be like directed conversations around problems I'm having. But then you can kind of figure out what are really some prioritization around those challenges and opportunities, and then you can bring it into that larger space, whether it's the leaders or the full team, depending on on your organization, and start to get to, like, shared understanding. And for me, like I like to use with with organizations, what I call the organizational order of operations. So think maths, but less math. So we're working with people process, then tools, so thinking about some sequencing as well. So people first, are we or do we understand the same problems? Are we aligned on what we think we need to do, and then working on where our challenges with our processes? So often a process is we do it because we do it right? This is.

What I was onboarded into? Well, why? I don't know, right? So asking those questions and intentionally figuring out where you have problems or opportunities that a tool can help you solve. And so you've got people are aligned. People are on board. They're sharing where their processes are breaking down, where you need to grow. Then you can take that into assessing all the wonderful sales people are telling you about their tools. Will it solve this problem? Will it fix this gap? Will it help my people be able to leverage processes in a way that will make them, you know, happier, more effective, more efficient and what they're trying to do? And so going through that kind of sequence iteratively helps people kind of move in the same direction, even when we're in a place where maybe we don't want a new process or tool. We're kind of moving together through this kind of process of this, you know, order of things to get to. This is the tool we've done the due diligence. Let's work together to implement Great, yeah, I love that you're you're really starting with the people that it's people centered approach. It's not, it's not tool centered. I think that's really, really critical, because the people are the one using the tool, or who are not going to use the tool that you've just spent a bunch of money on, or they're going to be spending their time figuring out workarounds. I also think that outside I actually just had a client this morning tell me that they felt like the outside voice was really important, because I don't have a fight in the game. I'm not trying to sell you a tool. I'm not trying to say this is going to improve my process, even if it makes yours more challenging. And so I think that's really important. So we actually do have a question that let me see if I can show it here. How can we persuade leadership to set aside the time to establish a baseline and look at workflows and work processes before exploring tools? That that's a good question. So thank you for sharing that. Um, I'll leave it up for a second. Amy, do you want to try to I love that question, yeah, because it's so important that not just like, you know, the people doing the everyday are on board with change, but the leadership is on board with a process for change that makes sense. And so something I've seen, and again, as an outside person, it's a little bit of a different process than like, I'm, you know, working in the company, and I want to convince my leadership, but something that might be helpful is some of that kind of discovery process where you're doing a little bit, it doesn't have to be super formal, but you're identifying some opportunities. And I think it's helpful in that kind of context to be leaning into opportunities rather than barriers or problems. So, you know, our team has identified, you know, an opportunity in our process. We want to explore what tools can help us. But if you're starting with our people, our people are looking at this, they're feeling this, they're seeing this, we found something in the process which we could iterate on, and then we're going to lay the tool on top, if you're kind of fronting that kind of need for, like, iteration and kind of a sequence. It's maybe a little easier, or maybe a little harder, for leaders to just be like, Oh, throw a tool at it, because you've kind of communicated some steps in intentionality.

Yeah, no, that that makes a lot of sense. I think, you know, one of the things I sometimes see is that it's the leader who's pushing the tool. So they've gone to a conference, or, I don't know something, and I will admit, when I was the director, I may or may not have been guilty of this, but, you know, they're kind of pushing the tool and push, you know, if you're trying to push back,

sometimes that can can really create a challenge, I think in that context, though,

sometimes I point out to folks, and I'm in a position as an outside person to do this, so there might be a more diplomatic way to do this, but tools cost money, and if we're going to spend money on it, we Want to get you know, our return on investment, and we want to really ensure that we're creating effective adoption. And so sometimes, if you've had tools that haven't been adopted in the way that that you wanted, sort of trying to say, well, maybe our that kind of just do it quickly approach hasn't worked as well, but I do think connecting it to the processes really asking some of those questions

also, you know, I think we can talk to people about being iterative. Like you said that if there is a lot of push toward just getting a tool adopted, could we adopt it with a smaller subset first, kind of see what the pieces are, what we learn, before trying to adopt it organization wide. Sometimes might be a really good way to approach that. And I love the point about cost. And I think if you have the opportunity, it depends on your relationship and where you're at in org, but if you can see.

Speak to specifically that the cost on resource, time, the cost beyond, just like, we're gonna buy the licenses, right? What is the cost to get people up and make sure you're kind of, you know, fronting that as well, of like, the cost of this means slow down and X, Y or Z, this other project might slip that timeline, so you can kind of make sure they're thinking really robustly and holistically about the cost and impact, right? And I do think that sometimes is a tricky conversation, because it can make you seem like you're anti tool. And I think that that you know that you're the person who's always asking the question that seems like you're against it. I think there's a way to say I'm excited about this. I think this might be really wonderful, but I want it to go well. I want to make sure that we're setting it up correctly. And I also think there are I had a client recently who was looking at a new tool. They talked to other organizations using the tool, and got some feedback from them about how their implementation went, and what the challenges were, and we're sort of able to kind of incorporate that feedback.

So and I don't know if you were about at time, but regardless of what tools a team is using, what's the single most important non tool related discipline leaders should implement to improve their collaborations and outcomes.

I think we've said it, and I'll just reiterate communication oftentimes, organization can forget the internal audience and that understanding where the people are at, understanding where people are how people are feeling about change throughout the entire process, and making sure that you're communicating the you know, why, when, where, what does this mean for me throughout is super important for implementing new things that affect people's day to day. Because you can get people who will just never look at the tool, or you can get people who are just kind of really shutting out anything, if you're not kind of bringing them into the conversation and communicating kind of regularly about what's going on and why? Great. Yeah, I think that regular communication is important because often, particularly early in a process, it feels theoretical until people see what they've actually got to do when it sort of hits them, and so having a communication plan for something like this is really, really critical. So Amy, what's the best way for folks to reach out to you who would like to either continue this conversation or bring you in as the outside expert to support them? What's the best absolutely so you can connect with me on LinkedIn. Feel free to connect or send me a message. Happy to connect. There. You can go to my website, impact projects, consulting.com,

I've got, you know, my email. You can schedule my Calendly there, if you want to schedule some time, please, you know, reach out. I would love to have a conversation. If you're looking at a new tool and thinking about, how can I do it very intentionally and make sure we're bringing everybody on board. So hope to hear from folks here or through my website. Wonderful. And, yeah, feel free to comment Amy on the you know, you can kind of comment under the live here if you want to put some you know, links for people to share. Alright, well, wonderful. So thank you everybody, thanks Amy for this conversation. This has been great. I'm sure we could talk about this more definitely, and we have talked about it in previous conversation. So thanks everybody for joining. Thanks for your time and attention, and thank you for for being a part of our Impactful Projects and Planning series you.